My Journey

I have made all the calculations; fate will do the rest -(Napoleon)

Tuesday, June 20, 2006

Courteous Cities


The result of Reader’s Digest survey of most courteous cities is out. The result I am sure will not be surprising for anyone. New York tops the list being the most courteous city, and Mumbai the lowest – the rudest city in world.

Reader’s Digest had its own undercover reporters doing the survey; testing on factors like holding the door open, saying ‘thank you’ to shoppers and helping someone pick up their stuff.

Stockholm according to them was ‘second’ best in shopping experience and from my personal experience I can say that is quite correct. I would give Stockholm high marks in other areas like experience of dining in restaurants. I always relish eating out in Stockholm and the servers are so courteous. That when there is no tipping like in New York.

Helsinki got rather low - 22nd position. I don’t think Helsinki is that discourteous? I have heard people not thanking you if hold the door open but not that no one holds the door open. In Hameenlinna that is not the case. Here people hold the door open and also say thank you. May be Helsinki scored low on picking up someone’s paper after they fell down on streets.

Amsterdam was two ranks above Helsinki. I have not found Amsterdam that co-operative for example - I had great difficulty in buying tickets from their automatic machines which had only Dutch interface. If you buy from counters you have to pay more and all tourist end up buying from there. I don’t think it takes much to have English interface in the automatic machines. Oh well, this is true even for Finland, they can put English interface in their ATMs as well.

Mumbai was lowest at 36th, bit unlucky that Delhi was not surveyed. It won’t have been lowest then. In Mumbai the Reader’s Digest reporter found that, let alone picking the fallen papers from a person, people walked on those papers in a super store. And a retailer even tried to justify his rude behavior! Good that they didn’t have any traffic related test or Indian cities would have made a hole in the bottom to find their place.

I hope this survey has some constructive effect.


Update 1 :- This post has generated the expected controversy. Mumbai mirror has picked it up in their blogger park. And Raj your comment is there. Read it here

Update 2 It seems that this is getting intersting. Even Indiatimes have picked up this post. You can see it here (scroll down on right side and see under communities.

29 Comments:

  • At 1:10 AM, Blogger educatedunemployed said…

    I don't know how much the survey will help in stating the obvious.It is a culture and I am not saying Indian or western just culture, it is in our bringing up, social values and what we lay emphasis on.It is about respecting another human being, and we just don't have that concept.

     
  • At 7:08 AM, Blogger pradman said…

    I won't say that the people from Mumbai or any Metro in India are paragons of frinedliness, but I do agree with educatedunemployed that culture plays a major role in every society as to what is good manners and what is not...

    Hopefully the survey doesn't end up giving the world the impression that Indians are rude. The truth is quite contrary. The best example I can give is that of Chennai and Coimbatore (where I studied). People Chennai are not very courteous but if you see the people of Coimbatore you would be surprised as to how well mannered they are... and come to think of it, both these cities are in the same state!!!

     
  • At 8:01 AM, Blogger Raj said…

    Its true that our cities are not too couteous. Even I'm not very couteous out on the streets. But it has to seen in context. I mean, an average urban indian would be more courteous in a mall or a restaurant rather than on the streets. I know I am.

    And yes, culture definitely is the key. Arent we always told to mind our own business and not meddle on other people's affairs. So people keep to themselves. Also, in indian cities, too much courtesy wont go down well. People consider it an invasion of privacy. Even i prefer people not talking to me unless I ask them something.

     
  • At 9:52 AM, Blogger Akanksha said…

    i am very coorteous .. i smtimes end up sayin sorry to inanimate objects that i bump into
    *sheepish grin*
    and hey i think delhi people r more courteous than mumbai people

    i mean u can just chat up with anybdy in delhi on the road and they would talk to u nicely :)

    @raj: hey i didnt kno that u were discorteous!!.. god i didnt kno u would mind if smbdy tried to strike a conersation with u!!!
    ma u r prickly!!

     
  • At 10:23 AM, Blogger greensatya said…

    EU - Totally agree with you. Majority of India's problem is due to its culture which is nothing to be proud of.

    Scipio - Yeah culture teaches us how to behave in society. In the news article it is further mentioned that most of the people who were courteous said they learnt from their mother or just cause others have been courteous to them.

    Yeah few Indian cities are very good examples. In addition to Coimbatore I will include Trivandrum.

    Raj - If you are taking cue of culture from above comments then they are actually blaming Indian culture not using it as an excuse.

    I don't know what stops one from being courteous on streets when they are in a mall. May be the superiority complex of being rich.

    As far as privacy is concerned you would know that it is one thing which is 'least' respected in India. And holding the door open for someone and saying thank you after shopping is not meddling on other's affairs or minding own business.
    Striking conversation is not part of being courteous but saying 'Hi' before you ask something on the streets is.

    Akanksha - That's very good.

    No I would rate Delhi the bottomest position. Ask someone direction on streets in Delhi and you would be told opposite. Every five words spoken in Delhi will have 3 swear words !!

    People when stopped for traffic offences in Delhi will start flaunting their contacts. Every thug on the streets of Delhi would be having two government provided security guards and you say Delhi is courteous. Not even close to courteous.

     
  • At 11:12 AM, Blogger Raj said…

    //they are actually blaming Indian culture not using it as an excuse//

    Okay, i dont see much difference b/w the two somehow. And i never used it as an excuse. Why shud I? Thnigs are what they are.

    Plus, I've never had any problems with courtesy in indian cities. People help u when u ask for help and thats enuf.

    As for opening the door, most doormen do that :)

    Most people at the counter in shops do thank me if only in a mechanical manner.

    And just bcos privacy is not respected in india, it doesnt mean that people dont want it, does it?

    Oh, and I do say "hi" before i ask anything so I'm not too bad :D

     
  • At 1:37 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Mumbai has polite people in my experiance ... Calcutta worst !! Delhi and Chennai are more or less same ...

    Bangalore and Hyd are somewhere in middle ... But Mumbai is certainly the best I have seen in India ...

     
  • At 2:25 PM, Blogger greensatya said…

    Raj - You did a total volte face !

    See in your last comment you said that people in India are not courteous cause it is considered invasion of privacy. I said that is already being done in the most glaring manner.

    There is a difference between using culture as an excuse and to blame it. To blame it means people are atleast accepting that there is a problem. Excuse means there is no problem.

    The door thing I know is not much in India cause we don't have doors at public places.

    I never had anyone thanking me after shopping. But it is good that you say 'Hi' before asking. Most people in India don't do this, they would straight away go and ask.

    Anonymous - Thats what I said that Mumbai was bit unlucky that other cities were not surveyed.

    I still feel that DELHI is worst and may be the worst capital anywhere. When once I refused to go by a cab which was not ready to go by meter, the cabbie said that if you take any other cab I wish that you meet with an accident !!

     
  • At 2:09 AM, Blogger Koi Pahailee said…

    can i have that report / list please?
    I wanna go through it as I am thinking of relocating for long / permanent term + can u tell me where karachi stands in that list...if at all, karachi IS in that list!

    good post by the way!:)

     
  • At 2:11 AM, Blogger Unknown said…

    "courtesy" as defined by this test RD carried out may not conform to our definitions of courtesy. like holding doors open, giving way to others, etc. mumbai is too crowded, too busy, for these things, and it's not with an intention of being rude, but that's just the way of life. (so the whole culture/upbringing argument- i'm not using it as an excuse, bcos i don't think we need to be excused for anything here)

    saying "hi" before asking something- is a western idea. i was never offended in mumbai if someone approached me without saying hi. now, having lived abroad, i may go back home and find it rude. same goes for a storekeeper saying "Thank-you, have a nice day" . ah. more often than not that is so freaking superficial. who has time for that in bombay?

    when it really matters- at times of emergency, disasters, etc, people come together in mumbai like never before. of course, you may argue then, that it should not take a disaster to show one's niceness. so bombayites may be "rude" as defined by the parameters of this test but they are extremely helpful to strangers.

    yeah, i'm getting defensive, bambai meri jaan.

     
  • At 7:44 AM, Blogger Freeze said…

    what is considered as rude in other countries may not be rude in India.

    and I actually wud not mind if someone came and asked me something, without saying hi. i dont think that is rude at all.

    if the survey was done by someone from India, results would be different.

    Anyway there are so many surveys that are done, and one wud always contradict the other.

     
  • At 12:02 PM, Blogger Raj said…

    //You did a total volte face

    When? And how?

    //people in India are not courteous cause it is considered invasion of privacy

    No, I said people in India prefer strangers not taking to them cos they consider it an invasion of their privacy.

    //Excuse means there is no problem.

    Well, it is just a fact. It may or may not be a problem depending on who you are. For most Indians, its a way of living. Its certainly not a problem. For foreigners used to all the courtesy, it might be a problem.

    So again, i stick to what i said. And its still not an excuse just the reason.

    //I never had anyone thanking me after shopping.//

    People at the counters in shops like fabmall ,shoppers' stop etc. do thank you. Even the guy who irons my clothes thanks me and i thank him too.

     
  • At 12:27 PM, Blogger Y said…

    as freeze said...how do we define being rude and courteous was the tesr standardised or customised?

    But even then theres no denying that Indian cities are rude.

    But its wrong to blame the culture. Culture is a thing X which interacts with Y in a setting Z. XY&Z amalgamate together to cause whatever we see or feel. So identifying the culture as the root is having a misplaced view.

    Ultimately everything is demand and supply based.

    In India everything is so huge, in such gigantic propotions that being rude or selfish or desiring ones benefit over others is a way of surviving.

    Look at Delhi. From what I am gathering, its got good, very good roads at most places. They have erected flyovers everywhere. The roads are so so very wide compared to Bangalore. Yet the population it is supporting is soooooooooo huge. And its growing by thousands by the second, such that the umpteen flyovers, Metro et all.. all fall short in easing of the pressure on roads.

    Roads are crowded. There is a huge demand supply mismatch. In that case when everyones wanting to reach in time for an important meeting, or to catch a flight, or to meet/see off dear ones; they have no choice but to care for themselves, win spaces on the road from others and in other words unwantingly fight with others.

    And when you fight, you dont show courtsey!

     
  • At 12:52 PM, Blogger greensatya said…

    Koi - The link to the RD article in in the first line of the post. I am sorry, I don't think Karachi was on the list. But London is :)

    TGFI - I can understand your anguish :) but as I mentioned Mumbai was bit unlucky that cities like Delhi were not surveyed.

    The RD criteria was not saying 'hi' before asking. So Mumbai didn't lose anything on that.

    The busy concept. Do you think people in New York or London are not busy ? or those places are not crowded? In mumbai when one lady dropped her papers, people not only didn't help her but walked on those paper.

    But all of it is based on some datum. So this act might not be rude as you say. If the basic parameters are not accepted and we take some other parameters then I agree Mumbai might turn out to be most 'courteous' city. After all terms are 'courteous', 'rude', 'rich', 'poor', etc are all subjective.

    My post in no way is meant to denigrate any city.

    Freeze - I would like to humbly repeat that Mumbai's rudeness was not judged by saying 'hi' before asking anything.

    You are totally correct in saying waht is rude at other place might not be rude here. Slapping is rude in other places but in India we can definitely take a cue from Mahatma Gandhi and offer our other cheek. You see no rudeness at all !!

    I am not sure about nationality of RD undercover reporters in India.

    Definitely someone from India would have done it differently. Like in India even things like cat calling, honking, road rage would not be considered 'rude' at all. It is way of our life, ain't it ?

    Further I have yet to find a survey which says Indian cities are 'courteous'. Couple of months ago our own "OUTLOOK" did a survey and voted 'New Delhi' to be the most rude city. What can you say about that ?


    Raj -

    //When? And how?
    Earlier you said that India does not need to be courteous but later you said that Indians are courteous albeit in their own way. So I said about volte face.


    //No, I said people in India prefer strangers not taking to them cos they consider it an invasion of their privacy.

    This wasn't a test criteria to judge 'courtesy'. No one talks to stranger anywhere unless they have work with stranger. And my personal experience tells that privacy is one thing which is extinct in India.

    //Well, it is just a fact. It may or may not be a problem depending on who you are. For most Indians, its a way of living. Its certainly not a problem. For foreigners used to all the courtesy, it might be a problem.

    This is what I call an excuse. World may say that 70% of Indians are poor cause the live on two dollars or less per day. We might say that we consider 2 dollars are rich so we have no poor.

    As I said in replies above, rudeness and courteous are subjective terms. We might accept the problem and try to rectify it or say that it is our way of life. Choice is ours in any case.


    //People at the counters in shops like fabmall ,shoppers' stop etc. do thank you. Even the guy who irons my clothes thanks me and i thank him too. //

    I never had it. May be India has changed a lot in the past two years. In places like Shopper Stop, the cashier instead of taking care of ppl in queue were doing it their own way and people who were not shouting were left like that. I didn't see any courtesy there.

     
  • At 12:52 PM, Blogger greensatya said…

    Sher Your comment came while I was responding to other comments.

    Yeah I have mentioned that 'rudeness' or 'courtesy' have their own subjective parameter.

    And Indian culture is to blame for 90% of the problem Indian society faces today. This is a stark reality.

    I got your point of supply and demand. We can say that we have so many problems so we are not courteous but it is other thing to say that we have so many problems so we don't see what we do as rudeness. It is our way of life.

    This is what I am pointing again and again.

     
  • At 1:24 PM, Blogger Y said…

    What I wanted to say was...that this supply-demand thing (pls dont look at it as an eco term) causes an impetus on anybody to behave rudely irrespective of the culture.

     
  • At 1:29 PM, Blogger greensatya said…

    Sher - Not really and not always !!

    Holding the door open so that it does not smashes someone behind - how do you explain it on this theory

    Picking up someone's dropped paper and saying 'thank you' ??

    It is majorly dependant on culture too.

     
  • At 1:46 PM, Blogger Raj said…

    Hey, I never knew my comment wud get so much publicity :D

    Neways, I can continue this debate till eternity but given that I hardly care if indian cities are "rude" as long as my get my job done, I think i'm gonna leave it.

    But yes, lack of courtesy is not a problem. If i drop my papers on the street and nobody helps, its not a problem.

    If I ask for help and people dont help then its a problem and i dont think getting help is a problem in India.

    So i think indian cities are okay :)

     
  • At 2:56 PM, Blogger Y said…

    As Raj says we can continue this to eternity.

    But I feel blaming it on the culture is wrong.

    Dont look at a particular thing isolatedly, it interacts with a lot of things to define the whole.

    And even by your logic( which u have not outlined here)the culture is not wrong, its the way it is practiced by 'us' that is wrong.

    Why it is practiced that way::::One big among the many reasons is the supply demand mismatch in almost everything.

     
  • At 4:47 PM, Blogger Freeze said…

    I said that Indians are rude but we don't mind it.

    abt outlook, they did a survey of only Indian cities, and one city would obvioulsy rude.

     
  • At 5:25 PM, Blogger Koi Pahailee said…

    there is no list in the link!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    and Karachi is da best...
    who cares what they say! Its my city[:)]

     
  • At 7:38 PM, Blogger greensatya said…

    Raj - Yeah it did get lot of publicity. So the bottm line is this. Indian cities are rude but we don't crib about it.

    Sher - Culture is something which is practiced in daily life in our society. Does not matter if we have a good culture but kept in books. I have no logic in saying that our culture is to blame for most of the problems. It is plain fact.

    Freeze - This is what Raj said in his comment. Indian cities are rude but it does not matter. Fine then.

    Okay so that survey is also wrong.

    Koi - The list is on the third page but okay I give the direct link. Click here

     
  • At 2:59 AM, Blogger Unknown said…

    wow. it's cool that this post got all that coverage. :)

    it also generated a LOUD discussion at my lunch table today, i should tell you. :) we were a bunch of people from several countries and most didn't agree with the test parameters.

    anyways, thanks for bringing my attention to this, i would've missed it otherwise. i think you're doing a great job moderating the discussion here.

    i won't say more on the issue because like raj, i think i can never stop. i will write up a post myself, perhaps. :)

     
  • At 3:08 AM, Blogger greensatya said…

    TGFI - Good that this survey is sparking discussions. Atleast something good will come out of it.

    I agree that test parameters can be different. We in India don't call our teachers by name. Several other like this. But there are certain basic minimum parameters which can be always true. I am not sure what they can be ? but there are certainly few of them which might hold true in all of the countries.

    Even I didn't think this post will generate this much heat. And you are welcome :)

    Will look forward to further discussions on this in your blog.

     
  • At 10:04 AM, Blogger Y said…

    //I have no logic in saying that our culture is to blame for most of the problems. It is plain fact.

    Thats a little outrageous dont u think?

    And cant help being outrageous myself in thinking that perhaps u are in a perpetual state of 'grass is greener on the other side'.

     
  • At 10:36 AM, Blogger greensatya said…

    Sher - You may feel it is outrageous. Questioning long established beliefs, to me, is always healthy

    I would like you to take burning issues in 'India' today and try to see what is causing that ? 5 out of 10 will be due to our culture.

    'Grass is greener..' could have only been said when I was pointing to some other culture as best and Indian as worst. My assessment of culture wasn't that of comparison.

     
  • At 12:00 PM, Blogger Y said…

    For one thing lets not confuse long established beliefs with culture. Established beliefs help in determining the culture.They arent the culture itself.

    And I never sought for or thought of a comparison when I wrote what I did. It just fitted into how thing progressed in this section.

     
  • At 9:39 PM, Blogger Expression ! said…

    How do you find out that your post is matter of discussion in Mumbai Mirror or IndiatTimes?

    By the way your blog and this conclusion is so right.I have been to Mumbai 3 times ,and every time I had peculiar experiences,especially in the local trains.Women are so arroggant and mean,that it is hard to talk to them.The first time I went to Mumbai for my Visa renewal.I was sitting in the local train.A got in the train in Virar(which is the starting staion).A woman got in the train and enquired me about some staion.The problem here was ,that woman had squint eyes.So even though I was looking at her I didn't realized that she is talking to me.So I didn't answer.On that she really got furious and started foul mouthing,on no fault of mine.I was sitting like a meek lamb,could not fathom as why is she shouting at me.
    In a "teth" mumbai tone she said ,"sunaii nahee deta kya,tumhee se puch rahee hoon."

    I am sure she must be aware of her eye problem,and should not get furious on insidents like these.
    Any way ,this was the story in detail.
    Ironically,the people sitting there didn't interrupt at all or say anything to her,and completely ignorant about what's happening.I was surprised.

     
  • At 11:58 PM, Blogger greensatya said…

    Sher -

    //For one thing lets not confuse long established beliefs with culture. Established beliefs help in determining the culture.They arent the culture itself//

    Actually this has to do with your previous comment. That was "And even by your logic( which u have not outlined here)the culture is not wrong, its the way it is practiced by 'us' that is wrong."

    So what we practice is our culture. What is not practiced becomes part of our belief. So whom to blame now ?

    Sharda - Well our cities are definitely rude. Whether we accept it or not is different thing.

    I got to know about the links from the counter. They also tell the referring link.

     

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